Podcasting Behind-the-Scenes

Making a Podcast is Hard

In the two years since we started our podcast, we’ve learned a lot. Like, A LOT a lot. The first lesson is that podcasting is hard. The better the podcast, the more easy it makes podcasting appear. We’ve learned that the hard way. The second lesson is that the rules of content marketing and organic discovery are a little bit different when it comes to podcasting.

In this episode, Chris, Mark, and Lauren discuss how they produce Newfangled’s podcasts, what has worked, what hasn’t, and what’s coming next.

You’ll learn:

• the pros and cons of running multiple podcasts within the same content team
• recommendations for integrating podcasts into your website’s indexable content program
• basic principles for insuring the best search engine optimization for podcast episode pages
• and how we’re adapting our podcast for its next stage of life, including some significant changes to the program itself

You can listen to the episode using the player embedded above, or you can read a full transcript below.

Episode Transcript

Chris Butler: Welcome to Expert Marketing Matters. I’m Chris Butler.

Lauren McGaha: I’m Lauren McGaha.

Mark: And I’m looking at a really interesting sketch in Chris’ notebook.

Chris Butler: I was doodling in an earlier meeting today.

Mark: I like it. That’s high quality doodles right there.

Lauren McGaha: Is it holding a knife or a sword?

Chris Butler: It’s more of a ceremonial, symbolic blade.

Mark: Yeah, it kind of looks like tarot to me, you know like what you see on a tarot card-

Chris Butler: Yeah, it’s kind of like that, or I think one of the guys in a deck of cards has a sword like that?

Mark: Yeah, yeah. And one of them is actually stabbing his head with a sword.

Chris Butler: That’s right. Is it the jack?

Mark: The suicide king I think, maybe.

Chris Butler: Is that the king?

Mark: Yeah.

Lauren McGaha: Off to a dark start here.

Mark: Anyway-

Chris Butler: It has nothing to do with what we want to talk about today. So, I don’t know how long you’ve been listening to this podcast. We’ve been doing this podcast for the better part of two years now, which is actually pretty surprising. We started this as an experiment, and we were very quick start about it, in the sense that we sat in one of our echoey conference rooms with a simple USB mic and had a conversation, and started recording that. We did that for what we called a season, we did it until the close of that year, and then the following year we started up again with … we moved it, better equipment.
And so we’ve been learning along the way, right? And I think we’re getting more and more natural about this, but in the last couple of weeks, we’ve had a lot of conversations behind the scenes about what we want to change about this podcast. And something that’s interesting I know for us, and probably for a good amount of people listening, is that it’s not simply a matter of changing your podcast, right? It’s changing your perspective on what works and why, and then turning around and distilling that down into a recommendation you might make for one of your clients.
Because again, we can decide all the things we want to do with our podcast, what needs to change, what we want to do differently in the future, but then our clients ask us, how should we be doing this? And so we have to find a natural pace, ’cause it’s always gonna be changing on both sides.
Today, we want to talk about some new thoughts on what works here, what doesn’t. What hasn’t worked and what we want to change. And then also let people know that in a couple of episodes, this is gonna be different, this thing that you’re listening to. It’s gonna be different, there’s gonna be some changes across the board in Newfangled, so let’s go through those. Where do we want to start with that? I’m looking at Lauren.

Mark: Yeah.

Lauren McGaha: Saying goodbye to Consider This. Do we want to talk about that?

Chris Butler: Sure, let’s start there.

Lauren McGaha: Yeah, so Consider This has been one of our more recent experiments with podcasting. I’ve kept it in its first season even though it launched a couple of months shy of 2018, so I guess in November-ish of 2017 was the first episode I believe. It was intended initially to be a more narrow in scope, in terms of content. So while our flagship program here is intended to touch on all kinds of areas related to digital marketing for experts, Consider This was intended to be a content marketing focused podcast, and in fact even more narrowly focused on common misconceptions about content marketing that we observe today, and sort of turn those misconceptions on their head and bring to light new ways or strategies to think about these misconceptions.
And we’ve done a lot of that, and it’s been really great. It’s a really more tactical show. We get into the weeds a little bit more than we do here on Expert Marketing Matters, but what we’ve found through just the natural maturation of the show is that a lot of the subjects that we cover on that show would make sense to fall under the Expert Marketing Matters umbrella. They are applicable to this audience. They are extensions of broader themes and subjects that we cover on this podcast.
And so the more that we do the two shows in parallel, the less distinction that I’m really observing between them. And so in an effort to sort of simplify our production and maybe eliminate the struggle to continue to create some sort of dividing line between these shows, we just felt like, well, we can bring these topics into Expert Marketing Matters and kind of house it all under one roof.

Chris Butler: Right. I think for anyone listening, this is obviously a bit of a behind the scenes conversation, but we’re having it because we know … we know, it’s not just that we believe, we know this will be helpful to people listening who are trying to do this themselves, who are wondering, okay, I’ve been doing it for a year, I don’t know, should it change? What’s gonna change? We want to lead by example and be transparent about this.
Would it be fair to say, Lauren, because you were kind of alluding to this a little bit at the end, that you’ve been working on two podcasts-

Lauren McGaha: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris Butler: … we also write content, we also-

Lauren McGaha: Have day jobs-

Chris Butler: … yeah, we also have day jobs and consult our clients. It’s a lot of work.

Lauren McGaha: It is.

Chris Butler: And even a simple podcast like this, which is very simple, it’s just people sitting in front of a mic, we cut a header and footer onto it and put it out there, it takes work. It takes time. We have to figure out what this program’s gonna be. We have to devote the time to it, and to do that twice a month for two different podcasts where you also have to bear the burden of well what’s appropriate for which side, that’s a good amount of work.
And so I’m not sure if a client came to me and said, “Hey, how many podcasts should we have?” I’d be like, that’s not even the question. Let’s just get one that makes the most sense.
I jotted down here, my note here was, Consider This is coming home.

Lauren McGaha: Instead of going away. That’s a nicer way to frame it than I did.

Chris Butler: Yeah, because that has been a burden, you know. We’ll sit down here in these planning meetings to figure out what is it we’re talking about, and a lot of times you’ll be like, “I don’t know if I should be a part of this conversation,” or, “That topic I brought, should it be part of this?”

Lauren McGaha: Or I’ll veto something because I know I’m planning it for Consider This. No guys, that’s off limits, that’s mine.

Mark: That’s what made me feel like, okay, we should probably just merge these. That was-

Lauren McGaha: Because I’m censoring you.

Mark: Yeah, I’m being censored.

Chris Butler: Yeah.

Mark: Yeah, as you mentioned already, Lauren, it started out as being a very separate thing, but as time went on, they just got closer and closer and closer together, and what’s the point.

Lauren McGaha: Yeah. If somebody came to me today, because … and we talked about prospects and sales conversations and we talk about all kinds of things, but often they’re content marketing strategies coming up, and podcasts are really trendy these days and we get asked about it, and we’ll say, “We actually have two podcasts.”
And I don’t recall getting this follow-up question and I’m glad, ’cause I don’t know how I’d answer it, but if they asked me, “What’s the difference today between those two podcasts? Why should I … What’s the value prop for each one?” I don’t want to have that conversation today, and that’s a problem.

Chris Butler: Well, and because you know that the answer, it’s not even a question you should ask, and so the answer doesn’t really exist in a meaningful way.

Lauren McGaha: Right.

Chris Butler: I’ve had a client of ours ask, not ask, but basically allude to, oh, you guys must be really nailing it if you have two podcasts.

Lauren McGaha: More is always better.

Mark: It looks impressive.

Chris Butler: Right, right. And you know, it does look impressive, because both were coherent, they both have their own … Well no, I mean, that means something. They both had a direction. You’ve had other voices on your podcast, you’ve had a different kind of sort of conceptual spine to it than this has had, so-

Lauren McGaha: Yeah, different format, different structure.

Chris Butler: Right. So, let’s just quickly let the audience know, what does it mean for Consider This to come home? It’s not just that that’s going away and you’re going to be on this podcast.

Lauren McGaha: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, it’s going to tie into the new changes that we’re making here at Expert Marketing Matters. So, where Consider This has sort of evolved into more tactical discussions around the relationship between inbound marketing and outbound marketing, those two sides of the marketing divide are always tied, it seems, and so there’s aa lot to discuss there.

Chris Butler: Right.

Lauren McGaha: So, those topics are still relevant to the people who listen to this podcast, and we’re going to be bringing those conversations into the fold here. What that will look like is Holly and I will just be having those conversations once per month under the Expert Marketing Matters umbrella.

Chris Butler: Cool. Yeah, that sounds great, and I want to get to you, Mark, ’cause we’re gonna be folding something in that’s been your vision for a good while that fits into this picture. One thing I’ll say about what we’re doing right now, the three of us, is that if you look back on the episodes that we’ve recorded as a group, my feeling is that we’re in our best place when we’re talking big picture about what is the zeitgeist of the space in which we work, what matters strategically. We have a synthesized point of view coming from different angles, and that’s what our conversations as a trio tend to be about, and sometimes we also bring in other people from the organization. Those are great.
And so we want to do one that’s sort of bringing the Consider This perspective back into the fold once per month, a conversation like this one that we’re having now, the three of us once a month, right? And so we’re already at the ever week pace that we’ve been at, but we want to add something new into that mix, which is Mark.

Mark: Yeah, which is interviews, which as you mentioned I’ve been interested in doing for a long time.

Chris Butler: Because he gets bored of us. We’re not good enough. We’re not enough for him anymore.

Mark: Because I’m so bored.

Lauren McGaha: Onto the next.

Mark: No, this actually relates to the last podcast we did about the about you page, and the ethic behind that. Just the fact that we do like our clients so much, and particularly when we are working with marketing firms, the people who are running those firms either overtly or behind the scenes, are so interesting and there’s so many great individuals out there doing this work who are really smart, and very interesting-

Mark: … in this work who are really smart and very interesting people and a lot of fun to speak with. I speak with those people all the time and that’s a part of my job that I adore. I just think that those conversations would be very entertaining and enlightening and all the rest.

Chris Butler: Well, some of our best content experiences for prospects have been those where we brought other voices in who are those people. We haven’t done that yet on the podcast. We’ve had some technical reasons in the past of like, “Oh, that seems hard to do.”

Mark: Well, right. It did seem hard. David was here once. Dave Baker.

Chris Butler: That’s right.

Mark: We did a podcast with him because he was here physically, right? But what changed my mind around this was when I did the podcast with Carl Smith of the Bureau of Digital. He used this tool called Zencastr with only one E in Zen. There’s no E between the T and the R. Zencastr.com. It was so easy and it sounded fantastic. Like it was just wonderful. I realized, “Wow, we could do interview podcasts all the time.” That’s how we does all his podcasts. He sound good.

Chris Butler: Speaking of Carl, tomorrow, for those listening, this will be in the past, but tomorrow the first episode of this kind will be out. You’re interviewing Carl.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He interviewed me for the Bureau and I decided to interview him because I think in this case a lot of the firms we serve don’t really understand the Bureau, the Bureau of Digital. I think the name of it has something to do with it. They think it’s just for like dev shops. There are a lot of dev shops in the Bureau of Digital, but I had recently spoke about in the podcast before I attended an event in the spring and there was not a single discussion of the entire event, it was like a four day event, that wouldn’t have applied to all the principles we’re always dealing with, the people who are leading these firms.
I’m a big, big believer in what he does and what he’s done. I think our audience could benefit greatly from being more involved in the Bureau. That went really well and that’s sounded good. I was quite encouraged by that. I’m very excited to start bringing some of these wonderful people into the Newfangled Podcast fold. I’m really excited about it.

Chris Butler: Me too. I think this is going to be really nice because for you the listener, you’re going to be getting all the things that Newfangled wanted to offer by way of a podcast. You only have to subscribe in one place, one feed. There’ll be some diversity. More predictable diversity now. We’re talking about three different types of episodes happening every month, so that’s more than every other week. I think you’re also going to be getting a lot of value by hearing these other voices, and I think it’s going to extend the reach of these conversations in terms of personal networks, but also in terms of the scope of what we can talk about.
I think this is going to be really good. These are all opportunity lessons that we’ve learned over having done these two podcasts now for the last year. I also want to make sure we talk about something else, which is a more painful lesson. It has to do with SEO. There has been a question since we begun this podcast about how does this play into the more traditional view of content marketing, which is you write stuff so that Google can index it, so that people who don’t know about you yet can find it because they search for words and Google match those words with yours.

Introduction: You’re listening to Expert Marketing Matters, a podcast about generating ideal new business opportunities by creating and nurturing digital marketing systems and habits that have immeasurable impact on your bottom line. This podcast is brought to you by Newfangled, a digital marketing consultancy focused on empowering experts to do better digital marketing. You can learn more about Newfangled’s digital marketing method at Newfangled.com.

Chris Butler: Lauren, take us into this topic because this has been thorny.

Lauren McGaha: Yeah. Actually I’m glad you brought this up because it has been thorny and it has been a journey for us. You know, it’s tricky. We do understand that that traditional model of producing really thoughtful indexable expertise-based content and posting it to the site is important in terms of boosting organic traffic and helping people discover you. We thought that that would extend to the transcript side of this. We thought we’ll create content through other means from traditional writing, like creating a podcast, and then we will have that audio transcribed and publish that transcription to the site, and boom, there’s our indexable words.
We’re getting all of the organic equity out of that work. It turns out that that’s so far not the case. That those transcripts are not doing really much at all to help bring organic traffic to those particular pages on our website.

Chris Butler: Right. In fact, we measured over the past year pages that were … The canonical page for the episode, so it had the embed player, the transcript and the title, against pages that were always meant to be read by human eyes, you know? Like traditional articles.

Mark: Traditional blog post.

Chris Butler: The difference was staggering.

Lauren McGaha: It was. It was. It’s interesting because if you research this outside of own primary research, I tried to do a fair amount of secondary research on this, and I could not find much evidence from other sources to support that transcripts are in any way detrimental to organic search or that they are not even on par with articles. There’s not a ton out there. I don’t think that this is being discussed that much, but all I was able to find were people supporting the case of publishing transcripts.

Chris Butler: Yeah. We did independent research on this. You did some. I did some. Holly did some. Dave did some. We all found the same thing. I found lots and lots and lots of advice, current advice, very current advice, that a transcript is a good move from an SEO standpoint. We had to come back to the table and figure out, “Okay. So then what’s wrong with this picture? If that’s the advice and holy moly, we got like what, thousands of words of indexable content on this page, why isn’t it sticky?”
We have some hypothesis that we are in the midst of evaluating now of things that we could change, things that we’re doing differently, and then we’ve got something that we want to do completely differently that we have yet to do. You want to take us into that?

Mark: One point about why it’s not sticky once we realized this. Just to put some numbers around it, it looks like, at least for our content, generally it’s about 1/100th of the content that’s being displayed. I’m talking about the words indexed. The kind that’s being indexed. About 1/100th result. If you publish a blog post, traditional written blog post, and you publish a transcript from a podcast, same site, same topic, same everything, that blog post will get roughly a hundred times the traffic from Google.

Chris Butler: So every hundred unique visitors that land on that blog post for the first time from organic search, you get one …

Lauren McGaha: On our site-

Chris Butler: On our site.

Lauren McGaha: … for how our transcripts were structured.

Chris Butler: Also compared to our content, we’ve been operating in the space for so long.

Mark: I want to like put that number out there. It’s a little controversial, but just for people to understand, like they need to go into it with the mindset that there’s not going to get any real SEO value from the transcripts.

Chris Butler: Although, although …

Lauren McGaha: We’re still testing.

Chris Butler: Yeah, we’re still testing this. This is a thorny subject. One thing we have seen is that we have some clients where their performance is better than ours on these types of pages. I suspect it has to do with several technical differences. One having to do with their website, the piece of the pie that are these pages versus others, their history compared to ours. Newfangled.com. Forget the three of us. Newfangled.com has been the home of indexable content around topics relevant to what we’re talking about today, content marketing, digital marketing in general for people in the expertise-based for almost 20 years now.

Mark: Not 23?

Chris Butler: Newfangled’s existed for that long, but I’m …

Mark: The actual content. I see. Yes.

Chris Butler: That’s a long time. Google’s idea of our authority is pretty firm. Google is good enough to understand the difference of intent on different pages and the different value in different pages. There’s some other technical things in terms of how those pages are structured, what is indexed first, how the transcript is structured, is there other meaningful content aside from the transcript. We have no intel at this point that Google … We know that Google can see and understand a transcript in terms of the index box. They know what a transcript is. They don’t ding it as far as we know.

Mark: Right. I don’t think publishing transcripts has damaged-

Chris Butler: Correct.

Mark: … our ranking.

Chris Butler: Or would damage the likelihood of that page appearing in a SERP.

Lauren McGaha: I think it’s safe to say the three of us here at this table are in agreement that transcripts are not nearly as effective so far as we can tell. So far they are not nearly as effective as a well-written blog post that was intended to be consumed by human eyes. I’m not yet willing to say if a hundred people come to your blog post, you can expect one person come to your transcript.

Mark: Although those are the numbers on our site.

Chris Butler: Well, yeah. Yeah. Let me just say, there are three little details that were kind of why you hitting …

Chris Butler: -little details that were kind of why are you hitting yourself moments for Newfangled. If anyone’s listening who has yet or has just published transcripts, just don’t do this.
Number one: In the title of your page, if you’ve got a title of your podcast, like Expert Marketing Matters, don’t title all of your pages “Expert Marketing Matters,” season whatever, episode whatever, and then the title because what Google will see is a lot of duplication there. Number one, hitting yourself.
Number two: If the page is going to have an embeddable player, JavaScript-based embeddable player and then a transcript, we would recommend that you don’t make that the first content because what ends up happening is the bot gets to the page to index that page title. It’s the same stuff over and over again, “Expert Marketing Matters.” Then the first thing they see is some JavaScript, not great. Then the second thing they say is an H2 that says “Episode Transcript.” So far, there’s no prioritized content. You’re not telling Google that the most important words on these pages have any meaning whatsoever. The most important things on this page are either JavaScript or these two words, “Episode Transcript,” that doesn’t mean anything at all.
What we started to do is write an intro where the H2 on that page … the H1 is now a meaningful title. It’s not the title of your podcast over and over again. It’s the subject. And then the H2 is also a subject. I think this is going to matter. We’re in the midst of measuring the difference, but once I zoomed out and thought about … like if a client had been asking me what’s wrong with these pages, those are the first things I would say. And I realized we were doing them to ourselves.

Mark: Right, yeah.

Chris Butler: Why are you hitting yourself? We’re trying that. I suspect it’s going to benefit us.

Mark: Well, yeah, sure. So far, we haven’t seen much of an improvement, which is interesting.

Chris Butler: Yeah, although it’s not even been a month.

Mark: Right, sure, but Google tends to respond pretty quickly to us. What you’re sensing as a listener is we’ve had serious and really intense debate about this. We’ve debated this as intensely as we’ve debated anything.

Lauren McGaha: Yeah, that’s true.

Mark: But my problem is-

Chris Butler: We’re all sleeping on the couch right now. It’s really uncomfortable.

Mark: What my perspective is is like, once we realized this was happening, it’s like, “Oh, yeah, of course” because what does Google do? Google mimics a reader, right? I know, for myself and I think for most people, you know people aren’t going and reading transcripts of podcasts. That’s not a thing people do. That’s my guesstimate as to why Google doesn’t tend to list these as prominently as it lists actually articles that are meant to be read by people.

Chris Butler: Also, transcripts tend to include a lot of words that are meaningless. Some transcribing services will offer you verbatim transcription. Don’t do that because every “um” and “ah” and half-word will be there, so don’t do that.
Second thing is spoken word is very different than the written word. It’s less rich. If you think about a soil, it’s less rich soil. It takes a lot longer to get to the point when you speak, and that’s because we lack discipline as people right here sitting here. But that’s the reality.
One thing we’re doing differently is we’re trying to now fold in best practices that you and your team, Lauren, have been offering to your clients for a long time and doing it for ourselves by way of this piece of material. You’ve been advocating for a long time that, if there are people on your team who express their expertise best verbally and don’t have the time or the ability or the desire to write, how do you capture their expertise?

Lauren McGaha: You allow them to express themselves orally and then delegate the writing to somebody who can distill that information into a well-written piece of content.

Chris Butler: Right, so specifically you record them speaking.

Lauren McGaha: Yeah.

Chris Butler: You have someone else listen to that recording, figure out what’s the point here, and then distill from that as if they would an interview and perhaps even ask some follow-up questions, an article or two. Why are you hitting yourself? We didn’t do this. We are going to do this now. For every podcast, we might potentially have an article or two that stand on their own. They’re not-

Lauren McGaha: Yeah, so they’re not on the podcast page.

Chris Butler: That’s right. Got their own page.

Lauren McGaha: Those will be their own blog posts. None of us is concerned about duplicate content here.

Chris Butler: No.

Lauren McGaha: Just so you understand, it’s okay to have an article about the same subject that you spoke about on a podcast, 100% fine. Those will be their own articles on the site. They’ll live on an article detail page in that area of our website.
On the podcast page, we right now are also incorporating show notes in advance of the transcript. The show notes are essentially an outline of what will become those articles, but that same individual who will be writing those pieces is going to listen to the podcast, look at, okay, these were the three to five salient points that came out of that conversation. Here, dear reader, here’s a few sentence paragraph of intro. Here are the main points in the show notes. Here are relevant links that you need.

Chris Butler: On that too, we’ve never had the discipline to do that. We’re constantly referencing other people and other things like you referenced Carl. You referenced Zencastr, and a good podcaster would go back and link those things and make sure people can get there, and we’re going to be doing that.

Mark: And that we will. Yeah.

Chris Butler: This has been a really incredible learning experience.

Lauren McGaha: Like our podcast confessional episode.

Mark: Yeah.

Chris Butler: You know what? Every client that’s ever asked me about podcasting, I have said to them, listen, especially with a piece of media like this, where there’s so many moving pieces and so much technical, like barrier to entry technically, that it would be really easy to think that you need to nail it, get it perfect before you ever make it public. I totally understand that. That’s my inclination. I want it to be perfect before I put it out there, but it’s just not going to be. In fact, you’re better off not doing that because, at some point, you’re going to learn that there’s a better way to do this than the way that you spent a whole year perfecting, and then what?
One thing I feel proud of is that, even if we continue to change this thing that we do here. We’re running in this heat, and we’re constantly learning new things and changing them. I actually feel proud of that. I feel proud that we can talk to a client and say, “Hey, go back and listen to episode 1 and just see how different it is.” It’s still there. It’s on our site. It’s even called something else. We had a different title than this podcast.

Mark: Right, yeah.

Chris Butler: And we’re not changing history. That’s part of this story. Actually, for people listening, the next episode that you will hear is going to sound a little bit different. You’re going to hear some different voices. You’re going to hear some different music at the beginning. When you get that episode, you’re still in the right place.

Mark: Right.

Chris Butler: It’s still going to be called Expert Marketing Matters, and then I don’t know which episode that will be, whether it will be the three of us or Lauren and Holly or you. We don’t know yet because we’re actually so far in advance that that episode isn’t for three weeks from now. But we’re excited about this.
One last thing that’s different now, we’ve never had this before: We want your feedback. We’ve asked for it before, and we’ve never really given you an easy way for us to get it, podcast@newfangled2020.wpengine.com. If you want to hear us talk about something, if you want to correct something, if you want to ask a question, whatever it is, just reach out, podcast@newfangled2020.wpengine.com. It will go to one of us. It goes to all three of us. We would love to hear from you. In fact, we really covet that feedback because we want to make sure that we can continue to, as we talked about in the last episode, understand the people who are listening to this and what they need from us because that’s why this exists.

Mark: It’s why we’re doing it.

Chris Butler: One last thing I want to mention. This is a surprise to both of you.

Mark: Ooh.

Chris Butler: I’m pregnant. With a new podcast.

Mark: Oh!

Lauren McGaha: Oh.

Chris Butler: Okay.

Mark: Oh my gosh.

Chris Butler: This is really bizarre. For people who have listened to this podcast for a while, I used to have my own podcast that I was doing for about a year called The Liminal, and it was based on a dream that I had of creating media out of another interest that I have that’s not quite on the design side.
I also have had a newsletter for many years called Don’t Think About the Future.

Mark: I love that title.

Chris Butler: As I’ve always said, it’s about design technology and being human. It’s really just I’m interested in design. I’m interested in technology. But I’m also interested in other things, and I just want to express myself really. Ever since I’ve had a child, it’s been hard to keep up with all this stuff. I foolishly started a podcast about a month after my daughter was born. For the first six months of her life, I could get it done because infants do a lot of sleeping. But now that I have a toddler, it’s very difficult for me to produce a one-hour, thoroughly researched and hyper-

Mark: Highly produced.

Lauren McGaha: Very produced.

Chris Butler: Highly produced podcast. And I’ve concluded that I’m probably not going to be able to sustain that. It’s sad, but it’s the truth. But on the other hand, I want to create a podcast. I have the equipment to do so. I have the desire, and I want to do this newsletter. I have been working for a while on a new podcast that basically turns the newsletter into a podcast.

Lauren McGaha: Oh, very cool.

Chris Butler: It’s called Design Tomorrow. There’s a website called designtomorrow.co. By the time you listen to this, it’ll probably be something there worth seeing, but there’s not a whole lot there right now. There’s a Twitter account, @DsgnTmrrw, but it’s just leave all the vowels out, so it’s D-S-G-N-T-M-R-R-W. But it’s going to be a short podcast, 20 minutes, and it’s all the things I would’ve talked about in the newsletter in the past. That’s the idea of design technology and being-

Mark: Are you going to post transcripts?

Chris Butler: I haven’t decided yet. It’ll be a little bit easier for me to do than this because these episodes are a bit more scripted. Anyway, by that point, I’ll be able to share that with you but just wanted to let you guys know this is a work in progress.

Mark: Got it.

Lauren McGaha: Yeah.

Chris Butler: Until next time.

Lauren McGaha: Yeah.

Chris Butler: Bye.

Mark: Bye.