Retaining Expertise, Reimagining the Business

From HTK to Hailey Sault

Hailey Sault is both a brand-new firm and a forty-year-old one. Over the last year, the leaders reimagined their firm from the ground-up, including rebranding it completely, going all-in on their focus on health care brands, innovative startups and cause-driven organizations in pursuit of the greater good.

In this episode, Mark interviews Mike Seyfer and Stephen Moegling, leaders at Hailey Sault, about the evolution of their firm and how they’ve embraced an entirely new way of marketing to re-introduce themselves to the world…

You can listen to the episode using the player embedded above, or you can read a full transcript below.

Episode Transcript

Mark O’Brien: Hello and welcome to Expert Marketing Matters. My name is Mark O’Brien and today I am joined by a couple of guys from Hailey Sault. I’ve got Mike Seyfer the CEO and Stephen Moegling, she SVP of Growth. Hey guys.

Stephen Moegling: Hello

Mike Seyfer: Hello.

Mark O’Brien: Hey guys. How are you?

Mike Seyfer: Awesome.

Stephen Moegling: Yeah, doing great. Thanks.

Mark O’Brien: Good, good. Thanks so much for joining. So I’m really excited about this. You two are two of my closest friends, really, and we’ve been working together forever independently and now together and so it’s going to be really fun to see where this conversation leads us.

Mark O’Brien: Mike, if you could, just start off by telling us a little bit about Hailey Sault and the history there and your history with the firm.

Mike Seyfer: Yeah, you know Hailey Sault is a 40-year-old company that recently rebranded as Hailey Sault, but for about 30 of those years, we existed as a regional generalist, working with all sorts of clients. In about 2007, we started to specialize in healthcare marketing as HT Klatzky and Associates and then in 2012, my partner, Marsha Hystead, our chief creative officer and I bought the company from the founder, Howard Klatzky and continued to evolve it as HTK Marketing and then last year, felt the need to reimagine our company and think about it differently. There were so many things going on in our day-to-day lives here at the company that just weren’t reflected in the brand that was HTK and so reimagined it as Hailey Sault, which happens to be Marsha’s and my two favorite places in the world, Hailey, Idaho, and the town of Sault in Provence, France.

Mike Seyfer: It sort of felt like we wanted the name and our brand to reflect something visionary and down the road and for us, working hard to get to a place that’s truly meaningful reflected what we hoped for out of our company and we were really grateful that it did with our team, too. So, we specialize in health care strategy, brand, digital, ecosystems and overall marketing strategy with clients.

Mark O’Brien: Great. Excellent, excellent, and Stephen, how did you get to be part of this whole scene?

Stephen Moegling: Well, in a round-about way, Mark, through you. Yeah [crosstalk 00:02:52].

Mark O’Brien: Interesting.

Stephen Moegling: Amazing connector. I was working for and was a part-owner of a complimentary agency on the east coast where I’m based and I literally had gotten to the point where I said to myself I’ve achieved what I set out to do. It’s kind of rare, I think, for people to have that feeling, but when you have it, you know it’s time to graduate and so I began looking around at where I could invest my talents and what I wanted my future to look like.

Stephen Moegling: Through a series of conversations, you, Mark, introduced me to Mike and we began having some really in-depth talks that then led to conversations with Mike’s business partner, Marsha Hystead. And I wanted to be at a firm that had what I call HCC. They had to be hungry, there had to be an incredible culture and they had to have incredible chops because being in the healthcare space right now, even if you’re not in this industry, you know just from reading the headlines, there’s so much disruption [inaudible 00:04:06] going on and that’s really having a ripple effect in the traditional marketing firm/ad agency environment.

Stephen Moegling: To innovate and pioneer new ways of serving healthcare brands, I think required for me to be at a place and with a company that had those three elements and that’s what I found with Hailey Sault.

Mark O’Brien: Ah, love it. HCC. I’ve never heard you mention that or I’ve never heard anyone else mention that, either. That’s interesting because they’re almost opposed to each other, right? If you’re hungry as a firm, it’s often times because you don’t have enough opportunity because you don’t have the right culture or chops. Once you do have the right culture and chops, it can be easy to get a little lazy and not be as hungry. You really have to work quite hard constantly to maintain all three at once.

Stephen Moegling: Yeah. I think that not just because my boss is on the call [inaudible 00:05:01]. I think it’s a testament to Mike and Marsha and what they wanted to do because I stepped in just as they both rebranded the firm and so that to me was just a great calling card for this is an organization that wants to do better.

Mark O’Brien: Yeah. As an innocent bystander for the better part of the past decade, I can definitely attest to that, as well, in terms of the culture that Mike and Marsha have created over there at Hailey Sault, formerly HTK.

Mark O’Brien: I first started working with the firm when Howard owned it and Howard was a bit of a legend in the industry, of course in the old agency world, and the ownership transition from Howard to Mike and Marsha was just really extraordinary and one of the great transition stories in the agency world. The agency has not skipped a beat and Mike, you and Marsha have just done such a great job of really making your own, while still retaining the core values and spirit of the industry, even through a re-brand.

Mark O’Brien: Whenever I speak with anyone from the firm, they still have that same friendliness and intelligence and wit and warmth that they always did. That to me always represented the formerly HTK aesthetic, right, that diluvian way, right? And it just shines through and I think that’s really endearing for the clients, as well, being incredibly approachable and not putting on any airs of any kind, but being on the game big time. Which again, it’s hard to have both those things at the same time, but you have it and so congratulations on that because one of the ways that agencies go out of business more often than not is through those transitions. When a buy-out goes bad or an acquisition goes bad, its very, very, very hard to do and you nailed it. You nailed it.

Mark O’Brien: I think it’s really inspiring because I know most firms are going to go through some kind of transition. If they survive long enough, they’ll go through a transition like that and I think there’s a lot to be learned from the way you did it specifically.

Mike Seyfer: Well, thank you. It’s really gratifying to hear friends like you talk about that and I think when you talk about Howard and the legacy of the agency that was created and the evolution to what it is today, it’s really culture is at the core and I don’t know that Howard maybe could have put his finger on what those specific cultural elements were because he is a great thinker and led a great agency and in today’s environment, I think it requires a little bit more formality of purpose and intent and especially as you are marketing to clients across the country and maybe even beyond versus having the benefit of being a great regional generalist. But he always had a knack for talents and for bringing together the right people that created the foundation upon which we’ve continued to build and evolve. I do think that culture is at the core of both what we are today and it’s reflective of where we were back then.

Mark O’Brien: Right, yeah, no. It’s so apparent from the outside looking in. Okay, let’s get down to marketing. This is, I guess, about marketing expertise. I’ve got a question for each of you. You both need to answer. You can choose whoever answers first, but when thinking about marketing an agency specifically, right, marketing yourselves, this is the question. What is the secret of marketing? Go.

Stephen Moegling: Mike will take that first.

Mark O’Brien: Excellent leadership, Stephen. Excellent.

Mike Seyfer: I guess in my opinion, it’s having a relevant brand and that’s not being [inaudible 00:09:04] and I’m only suggesting that based on recent experience because again, talking about the evolution of the agency over the last 6 years, one of the things I was struck in May 2017 when we were speaking at the forum for healthcare strategists, we had been in the middle of our own brand evaluation as an agency and what was core to us and where did we want to go.

Mike Seyfer: We were speaking in Austin, Texas, and I was on stage with a client and introduced myself as from HTK and I realized, man, that sounded poor coming out of my mouth and only from the small point that I felt like it had no resonance; people weren’t attached to it the way that we were and whatever we were doing as an agency and as a brand was not translating proactively to the national audience that we had intended it to.

Mike Seyfer: And so when we went to the final steps of our own reinvention and became Hailey Sault, I could tell you that as evidenced in the last year by the successful marketing of our agency and our growth trend that this brand of Hailey Sault, what emanates from it and the reprioritizing of our strategic services starts to make sense. Again, based on that evidence of the last year and what I would say is the previous five years or lack of traction with our former brand, I think that’s critical to it.

Mark O’Brien: Yep, sure. I don’t that that is too obvious to state, right? I think that does make a lot of sense. That obviously ties to positioning, which is a favorite topic on this podcast. Mike, you had mentioned that you decided to focus on the healthcare market 11 years ago back in 2007 and so what has your experience been with that, that act of positioning? Did you just say, okay, we’re going to do this and then it’s been a rosy road ever since? How did that journey go?

Mike Seyfer: I would say that we’ve had the benefit of a lot of great relationships to spur sort of organic growth based again on having good relationships that are willing to refer to us and that ability to create those has been key to our success. So more recently in the last couple years as maybe the string of great relationships just doesn’t beget quite as many new relationships as it did, we’ve invested a lot in our strategic marketing. And within healthcare, I think there are a number of agencies that sort of rise to the forefront when clients are looking and we’ve always been under the radar.

Mike Seyfer: It’s a great category to be in because there’s a lot of change. HCA created a lot of change and the need for experts to be at the forefront of it. This current administration is creating a lot of change and I think it’s a great category to be in, but that being said, the competition on the provider’s side, on the hospitals and health systems and clinical side, is tougher. It’s being fragmented. There’s no more agency records that do A-Z. The healthcare brands are hiring specific agencies for different tasks within the organization and within different [inaudible 00:12:47], I guess.

Mike Seyfer: So, it’s just a lot more competitive, so honing our own core competencies, both in practice and in positioning has been key.

Mark O’Brien: Yep, yep. That makes a lot of sense. Stephen, you’re one of the best marketers I’ve ever been in contact with when we talk about marketing agencies specifically. The way you approach things have and the fervor with which you approach marketing in general and the discipline you make out of it is just really incredible. I saw you do that in your previous firm and now you’re having an impact now in Hailey Sault. The question is now yours. What’s the secret of marketing?

Stephen Moegling: Thank you, by the way, Mark. That was very kind of you. I think lucrative marketing and this is true for brands as a whole and then if we’re just thinking about it as a marketing firm, ad agency, branding shop, design firm. I think the secret is you have to be relevant, you have to be interesting and you have to be of value, so relevancy, interesting and of value. Because I want to show up in a prospect’s inbox, LinkedIn posts, speech, whatever my tool, I want to show up and I want to be relevant to their needs at the moment.

Stephen Moegling: I also want to be interesting. I want to have a compelling point of view about the topic and the subject and share that thought leadership in a way that adds value in the moment, but also adds value in terms of a phrase that I use, which is I’m going to give you results in advance. Long before we start working together, I want to start giving you results and that’s, I think, part of the Hailey Sault difference in terms of how we approach the marketing piece and I’m sure you’ll probably ask us a little bit about the sales process, but really, that’s how we’ve then move into sales because I’ve already given you results long before we have the opportunity to work together formally.

Mark O’Brien: I love that. Results in advance. That’s a really interesting concept. Yeah, let’s get into sales a little bit and let’s talk about the fruits of marketing because a lot of firms, as you guys both know, don’t market. Most firms don’t market themselves because it’s hard and it’s challenging and the results are ambiguous. They’re not really sure what to expect. So, what are the fruits of marketing? Why market? Hailey Sault, you guys have been marketing hard for a long time. Stephen, you’ve been doing this for a very long time, as well, prior to and now with Hailey Sault, so why? Why invest all this time and effort in marketing specifically? What’s the point?

Stephen Moegling: I think the point is simply growth. Whether growth is year-over-year or fueling the attrition of clients or offsetting attrition of clients, but underneath that, I think the true value of it is bringing better clients who value what you do more and more every day. I look at some of our relationships that have transitioned in the last couple of years and of them, I think there are very few who at the end of the relationship truly valued us for our evolving expertise and so the fruit of marketing is bringing together people that … and I think this is the fruit of effective marketing that is the result of targeting, specific conversations, the cultivation and nurturing along the right content of being with people who actually value the agency for its best efforts.

Mark O’Brien: Okay, so let me push back on that a little bit because you said a few minutes ago back when you decided to focus on the healthcare market in ’07, you had a lot of good relationships so why not just stick with the relationships and let word of mouth and local reputation take you through?

Stephen Moegling: It’s just not fast enough in the healthcare category to fuel the growth you need to survive. So if you think about healthcare, 10 years ago, 11 years ago when we got into healthcare, we were the AOR for several health systems. We did everything and over the last 10 years, our responsibilities have narrowed as the client has either built out their own teams in several regards and had us focus more on the consumer side, less on the internal side of the health system and also, narrowing down our overall deliverables from what used to be more on a traditional side to certainly at least strategy and delivery across the digital spectrum.

Stephen Moegling: So as those relationships narrow, you’ve got to either realign your company for those continued expectations or grow. And so the depth and breadth of former relationships just isn’t there as they bring in more and more diverse partners or build up on the inside.

Mike Seyfer: Yeah and Mark, to answer the question of why market, why do marketing, I think the first clean answer that I would answer is that I want to be in control of our firm’s destiny. I don’t want to leave it in the hands of chance and we love referrals. In fact, we’re working with an organization right now where we began by just a warm referral from a great person to a great now client, saying you should talk to these guys and we love that. We did a ton of work after that initial introduction to win the business and we’re continuing to win that business every day with the results that we’re bringing, but I want to be in control of the destiny of Hailey Sault.

Mike Seyfer: And by being proactive and reflecting on who are those destiny clients that we would like to serve, the people and the organizations that will change Hailey Sault’s destiny by virtue of the work we get to do, the results that we can deliver then opens the doors to new opportunities and marketing for a firm like Hailey Sault probably for anybody on this podcast listening, you’re getting real-time information of what the marketplace values every time you’re releasing new thought leadership, giving a speech, doing whatever it is that you call marketing. You’re getting customers and prospects to weigh in on their pains and what their desired future states are and that’s informing everything we do at Hailey Sault on how we’re building for the future.

Mark O’Brien: There’s a line that you had right there that is so great and really interesting and I’ve never heard it voiced quite that way before. So, here we talk about a new thing. We talk a lot about right prospects, right? You guys are very familiar with this reaching to coach program. Mike, you went through it as I did and Stephen, you just studied the hell out of it like you do with everything. They talk about the right client. That’s a big concept inside of strategic coach and there are all kinds of ways to define the right client and a new thing we talk a lot about doing the [inaudible 00:20:50] of envisioning well who do you want calling a year from now just to separate the time a little bit so that you’re free to imagine who your right prospect might really be without worrying about your cash flow today, etc.

Mark O’Brien: What you just said about thinking and when to find the right client, who are the individuals that can most positively impact our destiny, which is a big word. That’s really interesting and it’s not overstated because it’s true. It is your destiny, right? And there is a destiny. One way or another, you’re going somewhere, you’re going to arrive somewhere, but the biggest thing you can do to impact that destiny is take clients on. They are going to control your direction more than anything else. When you think about marketing and think about the focus of marketing and when you think about your audience really targeting the people who will most positively impact your destiny, that puts a pretty fine point on it.

Mike Seyfer: It does and just to give credit where credit is due, I learned the technique of destiny client. I attended a Tony Robbins 4-day event with my wife about two years ago and during that conference, they did an hour promotion for another conference for business leaders. They started teaching on this idea of the destiny client and strategies and I kid you not, guys. Literally within six months of that conference, I had landed a piece of business using these techniques that was at least a quarter of my former company’s entire revenue in one year.

Mike Seyfer: After that, seeing those results, I thought okay, there’s something to this work.

Mark O’Brien: Is that a conference he does on a recurring basis.

Mike Seyfer: Yeah, so the conference we went to was Unleash The Power Within and then Business Mastery was part of the training protocol that they did. It was an hour advertisement for the conference, but they practiced what they preached. I got a million dollars worth of insight from that.

Mark O’Brien: Huh, interesting. Tony Robbins is such a polarizing character, right? He defined the leading edge of the self-hope health guru movement, but he’s become a real serious player. I think a lot of people write him off who maybe shouldn’t. I understand he’s a pretty strong spice, but gosh, I’ve just heard so many people who have gotten so many great ideas from him.

Mike Seyfer: Yeah.

Stephen Moegling: Well, look what the business enterprise has become. Sitting in our chairs, we want to judge whether somebody is truly relevant, are they a good speaker, do people like them, etc., etc., or are they making money at what they do? I think it’s hard to argue that Tony Robbins hasn’t made a lot of money doing what he’s doing.

Mark O’Brien: Right and many, many, many times over. Yeah. He seems like a pretty good individual, as well.

Speaker 1: You’re listening to Expert Marketing Matters, a podcast about generating ideal new business opportunities by creating and nurturing digital marketing systems and habits that have a measurable impact on your bottom line.

Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by Newfangled, a digital marketing consultancy focused on empowering experts to do better digital marketing. You can learn more about Newfangled Digital Marketing method at Newfangled.com.

Mark O’Brien: Okay, so you guys are both making a good case for marketing. That’s great. What is marketing? When you think about marketing, what is your mix?

Stephen Moegling: We just do newspaper ads.

Mark O’Brien: A little bit of Yellow Pages thrown in there.

Stephen Moegling: You know, at the core of it is now content, the right platforms, our relationships that we grow either through referral or cultivated, they’re based on expertise and the ability to communicate real insights and create value for people. Nobody’s clicking to our site or clicking on an email to read more extensively something that we’ve published if they don’t find some value in it. We all have thousands of solicitations across our email, LinkedIn, other social platforms every day and we bypass 99% of them, so if somebody does that, then we’ve created something truly meaningful and valuable.

Stephen Moegling: So at its core, digital content marketing for us who are trying to grow a client base that is from east to west across the United States and perhaps beyond, it’s critical to be able to have the right elements in place to do that and to have the right level of thinking. Our work over the last specifically 11 years has allowed us to cultivate insights and thoughts that more and more prospective clients are finding relevant.

Mark O’Brien: That makes a lot of sense. What’s the public speaking mix because that’s come up a number of times during this podcast? What’s the ratio between public speaking and organic content generated and primarily posted on the site and distributed digitally?

Stephen Moegling: That’s a great question.

Mike Seyfer: [inaudible 00:26:36]

Stephen Moegling: Yeah. Mike, I’ll just mention this and then feel free to jump in. Mike and Marsha have done a tremendous amount of speaking at national conferences in the industry that we serve, health care primarily with providers, hospitals and health systems and I’ve had my share of public speaking in the past, too. I look at public speaking two-fold.

Stephen Moegling: One is it’s certainly an opportunity to add value and build relationships on stage and sharing best practices and case studies, but I think if everybody listening to this podcast who’s in business development or trying to grow their companies, the real secret to it all is not just adding value on stage, but it’s building warm relationships with people off stage within the conference setting, too, and that has just really kind of transformed my thinking and the results that I’ve gotten over the last several years.

Stephen Moegling: In fact, just a quick aside, as I was transitioning from my last firm to Hailey Sault, I had one final speaking engagement at a state conference. While at the conference, I met a delightful individual who was a contemporary to what would have been regarded as a competitive ad agency. Although I don’t see and I don’t think like that, other people do. We had a delightful conversation and then I transitioned over to Hailey Sault and I followed up with this wonderful individual I’d met who shared that she was leaving the company.

Stephen Moegling: The company was actually closing. The owner decided to retire and she, in turn, because of a warm, truly giving relationship that we had built, was able to introduce Hailey Sault to one if not two opportunities that we closed within the first 60-90 days of me joining and that all came from being at a conference and speaking, but working and building the relationships off stage.

Mark O’Brien: Yeah.

Mike Seyfer: I would agree with that. Prior to having Stephen be a part of our team, our experience at these conferences, I think depended too much on speaking and hoping that people would seek us out based on our topic or the depth of our presentation, but it requires more.

Mike Seyfer: I guess one of the things that strikes me when Stephen was sharing that, it is still about relationships and everything that we are talking about today is all in an effort to create some type of relationship, whether that comes through the path of digital, in-person, but the more and more we could be out there, again sharing the level of our thinking, the more relevant we become and the better relationships that come out of it.

Mike Seyfer: And I think Stephen just cited a great example from this face-to-face interaction that he had almost a year ago.

Mark O’Brien: Yeah. One of the greatest professional thrills I have is that feeling you have after you’re done speaking at a conference and then everyone seeks you out. That really makes it a lot easier to work a crowd after you get off stage. There are a lot of people who are pros about working the crowd without ever touching the stage and they’re just naturally gifted at that and that’s something to be in awe of. That’s a really hard thing to do, but when the deck is so stacked, as long as you delivered the content after you get off the stage and that’s just a really nice feeling when the right people come up to you because they’ve identified you as an expert and someone that they’re interested in speaking with.

Mark O’Brien: That’s really the deal with marketing, right? Same thing with your web site. You want people to be exposed to your content, to learn from you, to receive the results in advance idea and then for them to self-select and get in touch with you and say hey, I’ve been watching you for a while and I think we should probably have a conversation.

Mark O’Brien: And I do want to look at just the influence of content creation and thought leadership on speaking. Is SHSMD still the big health care conference in the US?

Mike Seyfer: I think on volume yes and attendance yes, but we’ve found our own niche, I think with the forum for healthcare strategists [inaudible 00:31:13] with perhaps for us at least a better mix of attendees.

Mark O’Brien: Got it. Okay. Okay. I’ve heard both of you talk about SHSMD a lot and I remember both of you at the time were at different firms, well Mike you weren’t, but Stephen you were, getting your first gigs at SHSMD where you actually got your speaking engagement, which was hard to do. They don’t let anybody in. Can you speak to the impact your on-site, your web site, about leadership had and your ability to get into a good speaking gig?

Stephen Moegling: Yeah, I can start. I would say, Mike mentioned the forum for healthcare strategists. That thought leadership that we would publish and share on a consistent basis which I know this is not and advertisement for Newfangled, but …

Mark O’Brien: No.

Mike Seyfer: Let me …

Stephen Moegling: But I have to say, Mark, you and your team have really gifted myself and Mike with the protocols and the numbers to know and the numbers to hit and it’s scientifically backed and it works. And I just share that because that content off the conference circuit allowed me to get on the radar of some very influential people who have allowed myself and now with Hailey Sault to have the inside track on a lot of these conferences because we’re showing up consistently and adding value to the global community in health care.

Mark O’Brien: Right. Right, right, right, right. It’s a bit of an insider’s game and really the way to break in is through expressing knowledge and I’ll say [inaudible 00:32:49]. Once they know okay these people really know their stuff, they’re going to positively impact this conference and reflect well in the conference, then [inaudible 00:32:57] and that’s what we see time and time again.

Mark O’Brien: Well, this is great guys. We should probably wrap up, but in wrapping up, I’d love to hear both your thoughts just on the future of marketing for Hailey Sault. What’s next? You’ve both been marketing so well for so long and I do have to commend you on that because it’s hard and this is the business we’re in and we see a lot of firms and we’ve seen, as mentioned earlier, a lot of firms don’t even start the game, they don’t even start marketing because they’re intimidated for a good reason.

Mark O’Brien: But we’ve seen a lot of firms which this is the kind of sad part, who start it, have success and then get busy and then abandon it. That’s heartbreaking because the chances of going through the entire cycle twice are as far as I can tell about zero. So once you market, you do well and because of the marketing you’re getting more business and you get to busy to market and you drop the ball, the chances of you restarting that cycle again are zero as far as I can tell, again.

Mark O’Brien: And you’ve not done that. You’ve marketed consistently and really kept your eye on the ball even though you’ve had great success and so you really are trailblazing what it means to be a great marketer in this industry. And so from your perspective as a trailblazer, what’s next for you? What’s the next frontier of marketing?

Stephen Moegling: I think one of the biggest things that we’re assessing is keeping our finger on the pulse of what clients want. As I talk about our evolution of what we delivered to the clients 10 years ago versus today, we are continuing to narrow that focus across a couple of key competencies and then within those competencies expand the depth of our service along that, so while we may not be thinking about oh, we’re going to be the AOR doing A-Z, if you think about across healthcare marketing strategy and patient engagement, how can we go deeper along patient engagement and quantify that more for our clients?

Stephen Moegling: I think that’s the biggest, most important thing that we are doing and that’s at the leading edge and not the tactical side of it and that big organizational evolution, the continuation of that I think is critical to the base of our effective marketing.

Mark O’Brien: That makes a lot of sense and that echoes, obviously, everything we’re hearing everywhere. Just you have to get sharper and sharper and sharper and be more and more and more of a specialist to protect your piece of the pie.

Mike Seyfer: Without question and I would back up what you said, Mark. I think anybody that takes their foot off the accelerator and even if you’re facing success of month-to-month site visits or engagement or whatever that level of metrics is, the moment you start to take your foot off the accelerator and you don’t have those results for a quarter, I completely agree that it is hard to rebuild that value momentum again, perhaps nearly impossible.

Mark O’Brien: Yeah.

Stephen Moegling: Yeah, I mean guys, the analogy that I always use is it’s like if I wanted to lose 30 pounds, I would hit the gym every day, I would eat right, I would exercise and I would lose that weight. Then I’d say okay, I’m done dieting and then I gain 50 pounds back and it’s so much harder to get back to the gym. So why not just stay trim? Why not just keep those keystone habits that you’ve built which is about, as Mark would always say and Mike, you both went through strategic coach, working on the business and in it and looking ahead and looking back.

Stephen Moegling: And Mark to kind of piggyback on Mike’s answer in terms of the future of Hailey Sault, we’re really at a point now where we’re helping change the conversation about health care in this country, the very large vision that we have to do better and our mission is to created a healthy world and we do that with the clients that we serve and we’re lending voice much far beyond marketing and advertising, branding and digital and all the stuff that we do about really the entire state of the industry and we are moving forward as a compelling voice in a megaphone for what’s new, fascinating in an important industry that we serve.

Mark O’Brien: Well that’s not at all inspirational, Stephen, and you definitely should not be [inaudible 00:37:44]. That’s excellent.

Mark O’Brien: Guys, this is wonderful. I mean, just so much wisdom, everything I hoped for and more. Great hearing both of your voices. I really appreciate making the time for this and yeah, just thanks for being guests in the podcast. This was really a ton of fun. I really appreciate it.

Stephen Moegling: Oh, thanks a lot, Mark

Mike Seyfer: Yeah.

Mark O’Brien: Okay. All the best and talk to you next time.

Mike Seyfer: Thanks.